The box they came in was ridiculously shabby. Looks like he kept baseball cards in a musty attic for 12 years. It was held in place by a dry, rotten rubber band. Not what you would expect from a new shoe. But the shoes looked like new. They cleaned them well. Now I notice that the soles are coming off the shoes in several places. I think someone owned them before me. They have kept them clean but they are not new.